Thanks to John over at Reformation Theology for this gem:
He who comes to God in prayer, comes not in a spirit of self-assertion, but in a spirit of trustful dependence. No one ever addressed God in prayer thus: “O God, thou knowest that I am the architect of my own fortunes and the determiner of my own destiny. Thou mayest indeed do something to help me in the securing of my purposes after I have determined upon them. But my heart is my own, and Thou canst not intrude into it; my will is my own, and Thou canst not bend it. When I wish Thy aid, I will call on Thee for it. Meanwhile, Thou must await my pleasure.” Men may reason somewhat like this; but that is not the way they pray. – B. B. Warfield
{ 11 comments… read them below or add one }
This is so true, Will. I love practical theology. We can philosophize all day long, but what we really are is often laid bare.
This is often affirmed by those who pray for the salvation of friends and family. We pray that God would save them. We surely do not pray that they would save themselves.
Nice posting. Amen on the practical theology.
When I pray to God that He would save a lost sinner I am not praying that He overrule their freewill to refuse this wonderful offering, but that He would reveal in a special way His great salvation to them.
Calvinism has been debated for some time and will until God either affirms or refutes this doctrine. Until then we have Scripture such as 1 Timothy 2:4 where it clearly indicates that God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” (NASB) If that is truly His desire then it must be possible that all men (mankind) can be saved. Otherwise this isn’t His desire because He has already decided certain men cannot be saved.
I do believe that there is indeed a “whoever” in John 3:16, “willing that none should perish, but all should come to repentance” (2 Peter 3:9) Otherwise God is a liar, and a cruel one at that. For the good Mr. Calvin has provided to the Church, his misunderstanding of the mystery of freewill and God’s sovereignty has regrettably kept believers embattled to this very day.
Given how strongly some Christians hold to this doctrine, I will refrain from continuing this debate. I trust those that support Mr. Calvin’s position have thoroughly studied the matter in the Scriptures and are fully convinced of its truth.
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever [He has decided that] believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”
Has He predestined the Plan for Salvation or the persons to be saved?
Regards
Mark,
I believe scripture affrims this theology in Ephesians 1. If God left man’s salvation up to his own free will, we would all die in our sin. It is God who makes us alive when we were dead in our trespasses. This is not Mr. Calvin’s position. It is the position of a Holy and sovereign God.
Mark, if your closing question is legitimately one that you would like to discuss, I would be more than happy to discuss it with you, provided you leave off the sarcasm that riddled your comment.
I invite your interaction, but I would insist that you interact–don’t simply throw your comments out for everyone to read and then declare, “I will refrain from continuing this debate.”
Will,
I agree, I like to visit your blog because I sense that there is a good desire to talk, learn, and listen. I find your Christian fellowship very heart warning, and I don’t sense any hostility when I disagree on a point of view.
Mark, I encourage you to keep the dialog open, and I would hope that just because there is a disagreement on something there would be no need for sarcasm.
I have wanted to post something along this subject, (I am not a Calvinist, even though I scored a 87% as a Calvinist on a on-line theological quiz), however this is a big issue, and I was not sure that I can commit to the time of responding back. So I have just been reading quietly.
Plus this is one of the subjects that I have been recently revisiting in my studies. Maybe when I am done I will contribute something here or at my blog.
Robert,
Thanks for the comments; and I always appreciate your input. Disagreement doesn’t bother me, and I hope to always be gracious even in disagreement.
I am not ashamed to be called a Calvinist. The doctrines of grace are very precious to me. I’ve avoided starting a discussion here simply because I don’t think I have the time to give it the attention it deserves. Plus, I think there are so many other people doing a much better job of it (see http://www.desiringgod.org and others). But maybe we’ll give it a shot sometime soon.
Sarcasm: A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
Rebuke: To criticize or reprove sharply; reprimand.
Debate: (a) To consider something; deliberate; or (b) To engage in argument by discussing opposing points.
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In an attempt to rebuke this doctrine I have wounded professing Christians, my brothers in Christ. This was not may intention. If it were possible to meet in person I am sure we would really enjoy fellowship and the study of God’s Word together. Over the Internet it is constrained. In hindsight, my rebuke was too strong and has offended. Please forgive me my friends.
barrydean Ephesians is such a “heavenly” epistle. Thank you for mentioning it in this discussion.
I can certainly appreciate how a Christian could formulate this doctrine from that particular chapter. My poor attempt to reword John 3:16 to support Calvinism was an attempt to illustrate how important it is, as we know, to compare Scriptures to Scriptures.
While I believe God wrote His Bible so that spiritual people could certainly know it, it shouldn’t be at all surprising to us that it can also be very challenging at times since it is about a complicated subject – God.
Furthermore, barrydean, I completely agree with your statement, “If God left man’s salvation up to his own free will, we would all die in our sin.”
My continued wish not to debate this strongly held doctrine was one of avoidance of argument and strife. Certainly there can be healthy discussion, of which I have been invited to enjoy here. If my words seem cold, well, unfortunately they are since the must reside on your computer screen. If we could come together face to face you would hear my soft voice, gentle voice and my genuine interest in the things of God. To that, I am confident that Will would agree, we are even less ashamed to be called Christians.
Like Will, Divine Grace is a precious truth to me though I will not separate from any born-again believer who hold a different doctrine. I only trust that their belief in no way limits their gospel outreach to those lost around them, believing that a non-responsive sinner is one whom God does not wish to save.
For the purposes of Christian discussion please consider the following further comments (please note that these comments are generally taken from the Believer’s Bible Commentary by William MacDonald, and are truths I also have seen in the Scriptures):
The Bible teaches that God does choose men to salvation (2 Thess. 2:13). It addresses believers as those who are “elect according to the foreknowledge of God” (1 Peter 1:2). It teaches that people can know whether they are elect by their response to the gospel: those who hear and believe it are elect (1 Thessalonians 1:4-7).
On the other hand, the Bible never teaches that God chooses men to be lost. The fact He chooses some to be saved does not imply that He arbitrarily condemns all the rest. He never condemns men who deserve to be saved (there are none), but He does save some who ought to be condemned.
The doctrine of election lets God be God. He is sovereign, that is, He can do as He pleases, though He never pleases to do anything unjust. If left alone, all men would be lost.
But there is another side to the story. The same Bible teaches sovereign elections also teaches human responsibility. No one can use the doctrine of election as an excuse for not being saved. God makes a bona fide offer of salvation to all people everywhere (John 3:16; 3:36; 5:24; Rom. 10:9, 13). Anyone can be saved by repenting of his/her sins and believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, if a person is lost, it is because he chooses to be lost, not because God desires it.
The fact is that the same Bible teaches election and free salvation to all who will receive it. Both doctrines are found in a single verse: “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out” (John 6:37). The first half of the verse speaks of God’s sovereign choice; the last half extends the offer of mercy to all.
This is the mystery. How can God choose some and yet offer salvation freely to all men? But the mystery is on our side, not on God’s. The best policy for us is to believe both doctrines because the Bible teaches both. The truth is not found somewhere between election and man’s free will, but in both extremes.
Warmest regards
Will,
likewise, disagreement does not bother me either. I don’t think that anyone should be ashamed to call themselves Calvinist. He was a great theologian, and spent countless hours thinking and writing such things, that all of us benefit from.
I agree the doctrine of grace is very precious, as I know that without it I would be totally lost.
I am in the process of studying God’s foreknowledge, and Predestination. I just finish reading a historical overview of various theologians on this matter. I am not done with the subject so for me to respond on this subject would be premature.
The book I am reading is: The Cross and Salvation: The Doctrine of Salvation by Bruce Demarest (crossway books). I am also waiting for the delivery of: The Benefits of Providence: A New Look at Divine Sovereignty – James S. Spiegel (crossway books)
There are a few more that I might add to the list, but for now this will do. I really want to read writings that support both views. When I am done, maybe we can have some fun with it, as I do learn more when I interact with others, whether it be teaching, or simply discussing on-line with good folk like yourself.
Mark, apology accepted, and thank you for your much more gracious comments this time around. In fact, I think that much of what you said accords very well with a solidly reformed view of the gospel. There are a couple of statements and issues that you raise that I would love to address just to clarify any misunderstanding, but I’ll save those for a future post.
Robert, you may also want to consider checking out The Potter’s Freedom, by James White. I know that Demarest writes from a less reformed perspective than I would be comfortable with, but that’s certainly not to discredit his work entirely. It’s a good place to start. You may find as you continue your study some other authors who clarify some historical and theological positions for you a little better.
Like I said, I look forward to writing on this in the future. I’m not sure when I’ll get to it, but clearly it’s important enough to you guys to discuss, so I won’t neglect for long.
Thanks for the comments.
Will,
thanks for the recommendation. I am familiar with James White, I read “The King James Only Controversy” . Right now I am waiting the arrival of “The Benefits of Providence: A New Look at Divine Sovereignty” – James S. Spiegel, in addition to that there are a few other books that I am reading as well (not related to the subject).
I do have a position that I hold to, it’s just been a very long time that I have studied this subject, and I am pretty rusty. Since it’s been a while I thought I would read all new books on the subject, and study with an open mind.
Again there are plenty of good sites out there that do discuss, debate this issue. However, I do enjoy the dialog with you and your visitors, so it may not be a bad idea for you to post at some point.
As long as we respect and are gracious with each others views it should be fun.